Pound For Pound The Best Hip-Hop Group of All-Time

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:25 am

Icesickle wrote:I'm a big De La fan, but saying Pos and Dove are far and away better than Q-Tip and Phife (in their prime) is a specious argument.

Is it though?

Icesickle · Post by **Icesickle** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:28 am

Philaflava wrote:
Icesickle wrote:I'm a big De La fan, but saying Pos and Dove are far and away better than Q-Tip and Phife (in their prime) is a specious argument.
Is it though?

When the best MC in your group is Q-Tip, the other MC doesn't have to be that good.

The only thing that Pos can touch Q-Tip on is lyrics. He's maybe better lyrically, but Q-Tip's voice and flow are miles better than Pos'. That being said, Q-Tip doesn't get enough props for his lyrics.

When you factor Dave vs. Phife in, De La might take it, but only by a hair. It's not like De La kills them or anything...

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:32 am

I would say Posdnous on BMS was just as good if not better than Tip on MM. While I agree Tip never got enough credit for his lyrics, I think you're severely underrating Posdnous as an emcee.

Icesickle · Post by **Icesickle** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:38 am

Philaflava wrote:I would say Posdnous on BMS was just as good if not better than Tip on MM. While I agree Tip never got enough credit for his lyrics, I think you're severely underrating Posdnous as an emcee.

I love Pos. Top 10-15, definitely.

But he's competing against someone with one of the smoothest flows and one of the most singular voices in hip-hop.

Kiran187 · Post by **Kiran187** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:41 am

Picked Outkast. Even though Idlewild was wack and Love Movement/Speakerboxxx was average, both Andre 3000 and Big Boi are excellent lyricists who, for the most part, were able to bring a new sound each album that gained more fans without alienating original fans. Plus they were original and did not comprimise what they wanted to do musically to suit the tastes of what was popular at the time.

Wutang and NWA are dope but the individual contributions by members of both groups far outweigh their group efforts.

Tribe and De La are dope but they just don't do it for me as far as GOATs. I enjoy their music understand what the Native Tongue movement did for the culture and all that but I just don't feel them as the GOATs.

PE, BDP and Run-DMC all helped to shape the music and have songs that I like by them but I just don't feel them as greatest of all time. Maybe if I was 5-7 years older.

Mobb Deep - The Infamous and Murda Muzik are dope but that's about it. Not enough shit to take the title.

EPMD is cool but not the champs. Same with the Roots.

Gangstarr is sick and in all honesty I would probably take them before Tribe and De La because I bump their catalogue way more. Primo's beats at his peak are sick.

Geto Boys - Ill group but I always liked Scarface solo.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:41 am

Icesickle wrote:
Philaflava wrote:I would say Posdnous on BMS was just as good if not better than Tip on MM. While I agree Tip never got enough credit for his lyrics, I think you're severely underrating Posdnous as an emcee.
I love Pos. Top 10-15, definitely.

But he's competing against someone with one of the smoothest flows and one of the most singular voices in hip-hop.

So you're awarding Tip the better emcee because of his voice? Is K-Rino the G.O.A.T.? Style is important. Delivery is important. Charisma is important but none are more important than talent. I think Tip was an above average rapper with all of the qualities you'd want in a rapper. He had some really brilliant moments (see Midnight) but as an emcee I do not think he is better than Posdnous if you really want to get into it.

Thun · Post by **Thun** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:42 am

De La Soul didn't really hit their stride as vocalists until their 3rd album, imo. On the first two albums they were experimenting so much that they often come across awkward.

Q-Tip was already a perfected emcee on his debut, and kept getting better.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:58 am

Thun wrote:De La Soul didn't really hit their stride as vocalists until their 3rd album, imo. On the first two albums they were experimenting so much that they often come across awkward.

Q-Tip was already a perfected emcee on his debut, and kept getting better.

He got better then as De La started to reach their prime Q-Tip got worse. After Beats, Rhymes & Life Tip started to decline while both Pos and Dove got better.

Thun · Post by **Thun** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:00 pm

Philaflava wrote:
Thun wrote:De La Soul didn't really hit their stride as vocalists until their 3rd album, imo. On the first two albums they were experimenting so much that they often come across awkward.

Q-Tip was already a perfected emcee on his debut, and kept getting better.
He got better then as De La started to reach their prime Q-Tip got worse. After Beats, Rhymes & Life Tip started to decline while both Pos and Dove got better.

Yeah but nobody (in the United States) gives a shit about De La Soul post-1996.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:01 pm

Thun wrote:
Philaflava wrote:
Thun wrote:De La Soul didn't really hit their stride as vocalists until their 3rd album, imo. On the first two albums they were experimenting so much that they often come across awkward.

Q-Tip was already a perfected emcee on his debut, and kept getting better.
He got better then as De La started to reach their prime Q-Tip got worse. After Beats, Rhymes & Life Tip started to decline while both Pos and Dove got better.
Yeah but nobody (in the United States) gives a shit about De La Soul post-1996.

ALASKA · Post by **ALASKA** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:26 pm

The Bomb Squad is the GOAT

Galapagos4 · Post by **Galapagos4** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:34 pm

Plug Wonda is so fucking far ahead of Tip as far as writing goes , it's not even up for debate ya'll. Opposite goes for delivery, but the gap isn't as wide

(I'm only counting the 1st 4 albums for each, because after that it was allllll downhill)

Thun · Post by **Thun** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:56 pm

Galapagos4 wrote:Plug Wonda is so fucking far ahead of Tip as far as writing goes , it's not even up for debate ya'll. Opposite goes for delivery, but the gap isn't as wide

(I'm only counting the 1st 4 albums for each, because after that it was allllll downhill)

Being more cryptic doesn't automatically make you a better writer. I really doubt Posdnous could ever pull of something as well-written and insightful as "Midnight", for example, at least not in regards to the same subject matter..

clark bent · Post by **clark bent** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:01 pm

Thun wrote: Being more cryptic doesn't automatically make you a better writer

this cant be stressed enough...just because rhymes are more abstruse doesnt make them more intellectual or better

Galapagos4 · Post by **Galapagos4** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:06 pm

Thun wrote:
Being more cryptic doesn't automatically make you a better writer. I really doubt Posdnous could ever pull of something as well-written and insightful as "Midnight", for example, at least not in regards to the same subject matter..

true, as far as being able to relate, and painting a mental picture. but Pos wasn't just abstract for the sake of being a weirdo, he was one of the most clever MCs of all time and took pride in making you think. i'm mainly counting the 2nd and 3rd records i guess because i rarely go back to the other 2 as full album listens.

jredd109 · Post by **jredd109** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:06 pm

wu cause they totally changed the scene (maybe not necessarily in a good way in all respects).

The Afronaut · Post by **The Afronaut** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:07 pm

Damn I hate getting in on threads like this so late.

Voted Outkast.

I see the points people are making about them post Aquemini...but damn yo those first three albums are SO DAMN STRONG.

They were truly innovators and are largely responsible for giving the South an updated identity...they also expanded the idea of what a rap album could be, something I would arguably say nobody since PE had done.

And IMO Outkast has elements of every other group in the running. Theyre incredibly well rounded.

The Ivy League Nigga · Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:04 pm

Not counting Wu "solo" albums , especially 93-97 era, is a stupid fucking distinction. I haven't voted yet, but as long as a group is working as a group how can you say that said work should be discounted just because of how it's presented.

I also reject the idea that albums are the only way to judge an artist. Today we have playlists and shuffle, when I was younger we had homemade mix-tapes and other compilations. I'm not sure why every time we talk about music we have to ignore really good songs, just because they didn't appear on an album... which, let's be honest, is as much a commercial construct as it is an artistic one.

If we're talking about a group we gotta look at their entire body of work, or else just call this thread "Group who put out the best official album".

Part of what made Wu-Tang Clan unique is the way they chose to put out music. Holding that against them in any debate seems unfair.

With all that said, I'm leaning towards Public Enemy.

Cash Rulz · Post by **Cash Rulz** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:25 pm

Voted NWA only cause I didn't see Wu. So Wu first, NWA second.

Escobar305 · Post by **Escobar305** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:59 pm

If your counting Wu solo's than of course they would win. But as a group when making an album did they really make the best music? No.

Kiran187 · Post by **Kiran187** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Escobar305 wrote:If your counting Wu solo's than of course they would win. But as a group when making an album did they really make the best music? No.

If you're counting solo work then NWA would win before Wutang. Ain't even no comparison.

Escobar305 · Post by **Escobar305** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:03 pm

Kiran187 wrote:
Escobar305 wrote:If your counting Wu solo's than of course they would win. But as a group when making an album did they really make the best music? No.
If you're counting solo work then NWA would win before Wutang. Ain't even no comparison.

Word. Counting solo albums against group albums doesn't make any sense.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:25 pm

I thought I was very clear on this. Nobody is counting Eazy or Cube's catalog for NWA and you shouldn't count the endless projects for the WU. It's almost unfair being they have 10 members where other groups have just 1-2 emcees (De La, ATCQ, OutKast).

GROUP IS GROUP. My analogy should have been clear if you weren't a a flowerpot head.

Verge · Post by **Verge** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:47 pm

step one wrote:
Escobar305 wrote:
Also Outkast took more chances and covered more ground than the majority of the groups on the list which should be commended.
Did they really? Like what exactly? Please enlighten us
(Wearing fucking ridiculous clothes and living out your 'Purple Rain' fantasies to MTV friendly sing-a-longs doesnt count by the way)

1. Tribe
2. Gangstarr
3. PE
4. EPMD
5. DeLa
6. Wu

But I didn't fully read Gloss's rules, like an idiot, and voted Gang Starr.

No way Wu should be winning this, with Kast in second or third. Outkast is
good, but not nearly as influential or great as a PE or Tribe.

Cash Rulz · Post by **Cash Rulz** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:03 pm

Cash Rulz wrote:Voted NWA only cause I didn't see Wu. So Wu first, NWA second.

Sorry. Yes NWA. Straight Outta Compton is a classic and Niggaz4Life is damn near too. On the strength of the music it should be. Truth is 36 Chamber is certified classic, but the other group projects have been so-so.

Digs Darklighter · Post by **Digs Darklighter** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:34 pm

voted de la...for the simple fact that their last album is better than any album that any of the other groups put out last...i cant go with PE because of all the really bad albums they put out in their later years...if the solo albums counted, it would be wu hands down...

ROSARIO · Post by **ROSARIO** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:57 pm

It was a tough call between outkast and de la for me. I get that public enemy was full of influence, but personally I thought their music was kinda trash.

step one · Post by **step one** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:24 pm

ROSARIO wrote: I get that public enemy was full of influence, but personally I thought their music was kinda trash.

your a huge faggot. I get that if you werent there at the time, its kind of hard to 'get' PE but by no measure of any rational opinion is their music 'trash'.

unless you're a Canadian TI fan obviously in which case you arent qualified to comment on anything. ever.

ROSARIO · Post by **ROSARIO** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:36 pm

step one wrote:
ROSARIO wrote: I get that public enemy was full of influence, but personally I thought their music was kinda trash.
your a huge faggot. I get that if you werent there at the time, its kind of hard to 'get' PE but by no measure of any rational opinion is their music 'trash'.

unless you're a Canadian TI fan obviously in which case you arent qualified to comment on anything. ever.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:44 pm

ROSARIO wrote:It was a tough call between outkast and de la for me. I get that public enemy was full of influence, but personally I thought their music was kinda trash.

Trash? I know you're Canadian so I won't even go there but really? How old are you? Welcome To The Terradome? Don't Believe The Hype? Rebel Without A Pause? Black Steel In The Hour of Chaos? Shut Em Down? Prophets of Rage? Can't Truss It? Brothers Gonna Work It Out? Burn Hollywood Burn?

You can't possibly think their music is trash, can you?